OK. Congratulations. This is not my game and I was just checking up on you. I don’t think there would be much point trying to get a response to this from the original source. Anyway it’s not my priority, but my acknowledgements to you for doing your chosen job well enough to checkmate me, who am basically playing on a different pitch.

Fortunately debunkers nowadays seem to sit at home more than they used to, waiting for the input to come it. They were much more aggressive ten years ago.

Wayne Hall,

let me be clear: I’m not Jay Reynolds, nor do I always approve with his style of communication. And please don’t mix up aggressiveness with an insisting demand of evidence. This should be seen as a virtue.

I did not start off by deciding to be a debunker all of a sudden. I just couldn’t stay calm any longer seeing people fearmongering and spreading the same bunk over and over again, without any attempts to try and properly confirm what they are posting.

Why, for instance, did the poster of the “zig zag flight path” video not even try to double check? It would have been as simple as googling for “flightradar24 zig zag”. I did this during breakfast and no, I’m not particularly clever.
(Besides, I think you will agree that the flight path in the video defies all physical laws; a jet plane can’t turn on the spot like a helicopter.)

Instead he goes on urging people to take in even more bunk.

Does this help the “chemtrail movement”? I think not.

Do you WANT to help the “chemtrail movement”? Debunkers, including the most aggressive of them, always claim to be “wanting to help”.

You are apparently not an anthropogenic climate change sceptic but your thinking on chemtrails/geoengineering, if it is sincere, shows many affinities with the thinking of climate change sceptics in relation to ecologists and climate change true believers.

They have detected elements of mindlessness, irrationality and fear-mongering in the “climate change movement” and expend much of their energy reacting against it. The political passions that are generated in the process end up obscuring what should be the point under discussion, i.e. whether there are grounds for concern in what is happening to the earth’s climate.

Just as the political antagonism between the “superpowers” generated the nuclear arms race, so the political antagonism between the two sides of the climate change debate generates the most insane forms of geoengineering, whether as proposals or as practice is secondary when we examine this aspect of the situation.

This is the dynamic the late E.P. Thompson called “exterminism”. The subject of analysis in his day was of course the nuclear arms race, but there is linear continuity between what was happening then (and of course is still happening) and what is happening now (the newer aspects).

You say you could not stay calm any longer when you saw people fearmongering. Well, perhaps the situation is as simple as this, to use the parallel of G. Edward Griffin: you are temperamentally a cat rather than a dog. As Griffin says, if you throw a stone at a cat it looks at the stone. If you throw a stone at a dog it looks at YOU.

Wayne Hall,

I think with posts like the one you linked, the “chemtrail movement” is taking apart itself. Pointing out facts (i.e. debunking) may not not help the movement, but probably one or the other individual.

Instead of talking about “people” and “groups” all the time, my preference is to discuss facts and laws of nature, like the impossible physics I mentioned in my previous post.

You are moving off-topic again. Still no evidence for chemtrail spraying.

In fact the “chemtrails” movement is on an upward trajectory and everything the debunkers have done and are doing will just pass unnoticed into history. The arguments of debunkers may have an impact on some activists but they make no impression at all on the uninitiated who just walk around, talk to each other, and live by that their senses tell them.

Wayne Hall,

I hope you are aware how easily “your senses tell you” something wrong.
http://youarenotsosmart.com/2009/10/01/hello-world/

Let’s stay with the example you brought up (which is suddenly “not your game” anymore). You passed on that link without checking the facts.

How often did you do that before? Can it be that you were fooled more than once?

I was not talking about myself. I have looked into the matter in a way that my neighbours have not and do not. Nevertheless, here on this Greek island there are very few chemtrails debunkers, and they are mostly Communists, ecologists or anarchists and so unrepresentative of the attitudes of the general population.

The prevalent attitude is “what can we do about it”?

Your attitude and methodology would be regarded as incomprehensible and weird.

Wayne Hall,

again, ask yourself how many time you checked for a confirmation when you passed on a link to a chemtrail claim?

Do you think verification of facts is just for “befuddling the dills”?

Or is it a normal thing for a person capable of critical thinking?

I don’t accept your approach or think that it is necessary. You are a person with an abnormal need to believe in the good faith and integrity of the political decision makers. Normal people are prepared to act on the basis of what they see with their eyes. I am going to put online shortly an interview with the deputy mayor of our island, who is a normal person, and you will perhaps see what I mean.

Wayne Hall,

lets go one step further:

What if your whole chemtrail belief is based on a failure to check facts?

Look, all that I have to do is to compare the two propaganda videos I indicated before.
http://www.enouranois.gr/english/compare.htm

Go figure.

Do aircraft emissions heat the atmosphere or cool the atmosphere? Whatever they do there is a lobby that wants to make money out of it.

Let them get their act together and present taxpayers with a coherent story before they ask for taxpayers’ money.

To hell with these divide and rule games.

I could not care less about your contrail versus chemtrail obsessions.

Does that answer your question?

The contradictory propaganda videos are a fact.

Communist debunkers typically take the line that the ruling class couldn’t be doing something like this, because they have to breathe the same air as the rest of us.

Wayne Hall,

in your lecture at the Belfort Group meeting you mention the book “Verschwörung im Himmel” by Haderer/Hies. Is this where you got your basic ‘knowledge’ about chemtrails from?

On Amazon, the first pages are available to read. There is a photo of a halo (part), which the authors call a “chem-bow”. Did you ever look for an alternative explanation, like sunlight refraction by water ice crystals? Did you CHECK?

It is “Verschwoerung am Himmel”. I made a mistake in my German, and I am surprised that as a German you did not pick it up. No. My first readings on chemtrails were in the dossiers of William Thomas, and at the “Chemtrails Central” site, which was infested with debunkers, including Jay Reynolds. Haderer was not the first writer on chemtrails in German. That was Gabriel Stetter, from whom he derived a lot of his information. Haderer is a commercial journalist. My dealings with him were not pleasant because he was much more interested in money and copyrights than he was in chemtrails, and he soon lost interest in the subject of chemtrails. Gabriel Stetter, who is a marvellous person, has also become inactive. His intellectual interests have moved into realms that are even more remote from public acceptability than chemtrails. Haderer paid too much attention in his book to the conspiracy theorist side of things, the Illuminati and so on, though I must say his account of the origins of the Illuminati idea are closer to the outlook of non-superstitious historiography than is usual among chemtrails activists. As for chembows and so on: I don’t concern myself with details like this, and I don’t expend energy either enthusing over chembusters or fighting with people who think they are great. Many of the Belfort Group people have a soft spot for chembusters. Peter Vereecke has a chembuster in his garden. They are a joke, or they may be a joke. I don’t know. In any case, if they have any effect at all, it is merely to move pollutants into neighbouring areas. I prefer keeping company with people who have eccentricities of this kind to keeping company with people who claim to have knowledge that all these things are nonsense. You do not know any such thing.

This is a nice formulation from Australians Against Chemtrails: https://www.facebook.com/AustraliansAgainstChemtrails          A note to potential debunkers, trolls, shills, and hopeless believers in the system that visit this page. (Pinned)

The page is called Australians Against Chemtrails.
That means were are against them and they exist.

You are free to your own opinion and it is not our job to educate you on this or prove they exist. In fact, usually it doesn’t matter what proof we offer; much like the financial syst
em, Syria, 9/11 etc. you have your proverbial heads deep in the sand and believe the Government, media and modern corrupted corporate science can do no wrong or tell no lies. Even when greeted with the official documents, patents, admissions by high ranking officials, tests of rain water here in Australia or stories such as the Swedish politician who called for chemtrail truth last week you lot will still say “it’s all make believe”. This is called cognitive dissonance.

If you are banned that is not because we are “silencing” you, but because pretty much all of you, with the exception of a couple of people who are still welcome to comment here, engage in name-calling, trolling, spamming and organising people to bomb this and other pages.
The swearing is the main problem - as soon as you start swearing and using foul language you will be banned. Most of these people will use foul language as soon as they visit the page. These people are USUALLY around the age of 18, male, and first year uni students who are being spoon-fed UN dogma. These people will actually create groups and pages to get people to engage in this pointless activity. Many will even create obviously fake profiles that claim they are Qantas pilots, RAAF pilots etc.

Psychologically speaking, these people are actually are our biggest fans and secretly know chemtrails are real, vaccinations are useless etc. they just can’t admit it - this is why they fight for their world view.

All they want to talk about is contrails. Just because contrails exist does not mean that chemtrails do not - in fact this argument is totally unscientific in nature and shows the level of intelligence of the individual that makes such an argument.

If you actually believe that within 20 years pesistent contrails have gone from scientifically being “very rare and seen only in cold and humid times of Winter” to “spreading out and normally lasting 13 hours as aged contrails all through the year” according to NASA/NOA etc. then you have been very fooled by the establishment.

The purpose of this growing movement is to document the ongoing spraying of chemtrails in our skies and to become organised to take action against it.

Here’s a couple of links that explain the patents and how a lot of this stuff works, how long they’ve been doing it for, etc:

http://rezn8d.net/2011/11/28/weather-modification-101-100-years-of-cloud-seeding/
http://sincedutch.wordpress.com/2012/04/24/want-to-know-about-weather-modification-haarp-vlf-hf-and-chemtrails-want-to-prove-it-to-a-non-believer-here-you-go/

First reference to Morgellons in “The Guardian”:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/may/07/morgellons-mysterious-illness

Swedish Politician’s Promise to Stop Chemtrails Gets Global Support

http://chemtrailsplanet.net/2012/09/25/1008/

“An update on the brave efforts of Swedish Green Party politician Pernilla Hagberg to raise the issue of Chemtrails to the public eye.”

Look at these pathetic half-assed attempts to secure public legitimation as “a project” of something they are already engaged in globally, and possibly for reasons other than what they say.

To retain the consent of these poor sods they are going to have to keep them believing in anthropogenic climate change, at the same time as the big lobbies go from strength to strength with their promotion of climate change scepticism, and also prevent the plebba from realizing that they are being deceived because the chemtrails “loonies” are right.

http://www.truthnews.com.au/web/news/story/contrails_dissipate_quickly_whereas_chemtrails_linger/P380

The contradictions in Teller’s initial conception
http://www.hoover.org/publications/hoover-digest/article/6791
are playing themselves out and becoming grotesque.

It is one thing to structure a Cold War between conflicting states around lies, double-speak and diplomatic obstruction.  It is quite another thing to transpose the game to the domestic politics, dissolving functioning and integrated societies.

Sorry, that was the wrong link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oog8E0mZDNs&feature=g-all-lik

Wayne Hall,

lots of words about politics, mixed with ad hominem jibes against debunkers - the only things that are missing are facts.

Do you think politicians are immune to gullibility?

Did you ever critically check the claims of William Thomas et al.?